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Duterte's Philippines Is Getting More Corrupt

Discussion in 'General Chit Chat' started by Anon04576, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    I wouldn't put it in those terms as those who support other parties will never admit that their candidate is bad!

    For sure Aquino and Arroyo ruled for the benefit of the few (ie the rich) and there's every reason to suppose that Roxas or Binay would have been any different. Don't forget just over £87.5 million was donated by the British public to the Yolanda appeal - that's around 5.7 billion Pesos - Aquino and Roxas need to account for all that money which was never spent rebuilding the areas devastated by that typhoon. I'm half expecting to read of yet another money-laundering scandal involving HSBC assisting that hapless duo.

    Duterte promised to rule for the benefit of the many and one reason for his anti-drugs campaign is to cut the supply of money to the mega-rich criminals that previous administrations served so admirably. The problems the country faces are so serious, so deeply ingrained into the fabric of society they can't be reversed quickly, that process will take several years.

    Like many of Duterte's critics, @Numpters is big on rhetoric but short on evidence to back-up her accusations. She is also in denial - as most Liberal supporters there are - of the concerted anti-Duterte rhetoric promulgated in the media - much of which is pro-Liberal Party. There's no denying that he can be crude, hostile and outspoken but the media has been against him for many years. Ironically it was their hostile, negative campaigning against him that probably helped to secure his victory.
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  2. Mattecube
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    Mattecube face the sunshine so shadows fall behind you Trusted Member

    Tim Farron (joke)
  3. Numpters
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    Numpters Active Member

    @Markham Big on rhetoric but short on evidence? All your posts on this thread have only referred to Maley's opinions and "friends' opinions." I don't see any evidence anywhere, just opinions, and yet you haven't commented against that. Oh of course - they're on your side. Typical.
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  4. Scotschap16
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    Scotschap16 Well-Known Member

    I know I said I was bowing out of this thread but in the interests of educating our friend Markham who asks for evidence of Duterte's crimes I offer him someone he greatly admires & respects - the current President of the Philippines. Surely even Mr M won't challenge such an unimpeachable source?

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...t-rodrigo-duterte-personally-killed-criminals

    It's gratifying to see Markham supporting the plight of the Filipino poor and preyed-upon in more recent posts. Perhaps this Damocean conversion will begin to apply equally when he turns his attentions to life here in the UK.

    Perhaps better not to hold one's breath.

    G
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2017
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  5. Scotschap16
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    Scotschap16 Well-Known Member

    Very well said.

    G
  6. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    Read Maley's posts again. She writes from first-hand experience of living in Cotobato and Davao.
  7. Numpters
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    Numpters Active Member

    I also have firsthand experience of living in this country but somehow hers is evidence and mine is just rhetoric? Cool.
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  8. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    Sarcasm does not become you. I am well aware of that piece in the Guardian, it has been quoted here before. But you have to ask yourself this, why hasn't Duterte been impeached, charged, tried and imprisoned if what the Guardian claims is true? Could it be that he was actually telling porkie-pies to make him look and sound like a tough guy - a day or two later, Duterte came clean and told (local) reporters he'd been bragging and exaggerating and none of what he said actually was true. Hardly surprising that follow-up was not read by Guardian readers!
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  9. Timmers
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    Timmers Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    I always enjoy reading your opinions on the politics of the Philippines.

    If you were British I just know you'd be an extreme Brexiteer just like me :lol:
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  10. Numpters
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    Numpters Active Member

    1. Hi @Maley I don't see how where I live is relevant to this. Check my points again. Are you saying that maybe if we grew up in the same city I would be more tolerant of Duterte's cronyism, rape jokes, etc? Don't get me wrong - I absolutely understand why 16M out of 40M voters chose Duterte. I understand why millions of Filipinos are okay with the killings. I live in the same Philippines that's sick of crooks, crimes and oligarchs. But understanding it doesn't mean I have to agree. And understanding it doesn't mean I have to turn a blind eye to his other wrongs. What do you personally think of these killings anyway?

    2. I agree with you. That's a bad bunch of candidates. But we should be able to criticise Duterte independently, without thought about who's going to replace him. He's the president now and I'm criticising him as my president.

    3. I understand - Duterte's administration has made you feel safe and that's good. I'm not really questioning that. But what do you think of his other actions? As a woman, what do you think of his rape jokes? What about his kowtowing to China? Cronyism?
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  11. Scotschap16
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    Scotschap16 Well-Known Member

    Well aware of it's existence but choose to ignore it when marshalling your argument - pesky things facts!

    Perhaps his "retraction" was after he realised his admission could bring negative consequences.

    Perhaps there's been no charges brought because those who might do so are worried about being food for the Manila Bay fish.

    Who knows really - but I'd aver it's never a good thing when a head of state boasts of unlawful killings. Doesn't really instil confidence that the country will be administered in a competent, civilised, manner.

    The real sadness connected to your position (and without in any way trying to patronise or point-score - I credit you with having a sharp mind (and pen)) - is your apparent casual indifference to thousands of innocent Filipinos being murdered.

    You know very well what happens when vigilantes and rogue police units are unleashed - there is mountains of evidence from South America, Africa, Asia and the Middle East confirming that innocents get killed, scores get settled, rivals get eliminated etc etc. There is incontrovertible evidence of this.

    Even if I accepted that a drug dealer should be summarily executed ( which I don't - it is a mark of a civilised society that suspected criminals should also be subject to due process - including a fair trial) it's crystal clear from the emerging evidence that consumers of illegal substances are - in Duterte's eyes - as guilty as the drug baron or local Barangay dealer - and deserving of similar treatment.

    Again, you'll know that once addicted to drugs it's almost impossible to stop. We'll both have known people addicted to some substance - including alcohol. Presumably you would be horrified if the cops here in the UK began shooting to death hapless people caught buying their weed from the local supplier?

    If I'm right then why do you apparently value the life of a Filipino less than the life of a UK citizen? Isn't a Filipino - yes, even one who MAY have committed a crime - entitled to face their peers in a properly constituted court of law as they are here in the UK?

    I understand the structures of Filipino society are not what they ought to be. Nevertheless, such deficiencies surely cannot - and should never - be used to justify extra-judicial killing.

    Do you support the killing of people who are suspected of having committed a crime - or do you support the principles of arrest, investigation, fair trial and punishment / aquital?

    If it's the former do you think the current practice in the Philippines should be extended to the UK?


    Human rights are surely universal. No?

    Gerry
  12. Scotschap16
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    Scotschap16 Well-Known Member

    Fantastic post - well-argued and highly-pertinent.
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  13. Scotschap16
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    Scotschap16 Well-Known Member

    I think some are - but I cannot fathom how they are able so easily to condone his methods.
  14. Maley
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    Maley Well-Known Member

    Valid points.

    What im saying are the following:
    - first, i dont believe that the killings are state sponsored. Those police scums are already in power before he was in power. I think that its those morally corrupt killing each other off to try and clean their ranks because the new adminstration has finally focused on them.
    - second - that we agree on. As part of a healthy democracy, we need to be part of the movement by critizing or highlighting the wrongs. My family has already called a lot of times to the 888 hotline to report a lot of stuff (mainly on the failure of the local goverment to deliver services). Some have been acted on and some havent but at least you know somethings are beinf acted upon. That is the point where i say there is less corruption.

    Third:
    A- on the rape joke - yes, i abhor that as well but you see action speaks louder than words. Davao city under him has a functioning gender equality center (if you are gay or woman and being discriminated, the govt will intervene) a functioning womens' help desk (for battered women who wants to escape the situation) both implemented in the 90s way ahead of its times in our country, has banned swimsuit portion from the mutya ng davao (miss davao city) competition, lastly as unpleasant as it might sound, the GROs/lady of the night in the city gets free health check courtesy of the government as well as free access to contraceptives (in our society where its not being discussed or being hidden, these issues are being addressed).

    B - china issue? I dont think its an issue. We need to build relationship with anyone we think we can benefit from and not just anyone which the US tells us to be friends with. At the same time, we cant be caught in the middle of the fight between US and China, if that happens, its going to be the same as WW2 all over again when japan invaded ph since we are ally of the US this time, its just china.

    C - Cronyism - when you appoint people are department heads, they serve as his alter ego therefore it should be someone who he knows. Its his discretion who he wants to put there and as long as they work for the benefit of the people with integrity, they should be given a chance. Remember, duterte requires anyone that serves with him with 'seniority position' can not run for government seat after his term. And if there is any hint of scandal with anyone of his appointee, you can always report it to the hotline and then wait and see.
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  15. Bootsonground
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    Bootsonground Guest

    Where we live,many of us have considered calling that number,usually due to the terrible service at Municipal hall..(terrible Mayor)
    Woe betide us if they ever find out that complaint came from us!!
    How are the calls processed and how do they validate the call without us giving our names or do we have to give our names??
    Thanks for any info you may have.
  16. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Your words create the division that you see.
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  17. Maley
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    Maley Well-Known Member

    I spoke to my mum, their recent complaints pertained to the irrigation fees they were being collected on which duterte already mentioned should be abolished (He said farmers should not be asked to pay for irrigation fees since watering farm fields should be part of service of govt and shouldnt be shouldered by farmers). So in their situation, its against a branch of national govt so might be slightly different.

    The hotline doesnt require your personal info and they called using a prepaid number, the local branch of the irrigation office replied to the prepaid number. Explanation was that it was just the pronouncement but the implementing rules have not been finalized, so they still have to pay and might get refund later. This case have been escalated by my parents to sec of agriculture.

    In your case, my mum suggests the following:
    Send an anonymous letter to the Ombudsman cc the DILG, Com of audit (specially if it pertains to disbursement of funds) and office of the president detailing as much as you can the corruption practice and evidence if possible that you know and send the letter via lbc (or valid courier). These are the agencies directly involved with monitoring the local government.

    My cousin works for the commission on audit and personally mentioned that there have been an increase on these letters and tip offs (and in some cases, others do look like its an insider due to the bulk of evidence provided). In the past year alone, they had to increase their manpower to cope up. Admin cases have been filed and some local official ends up being suspended and banned from government service.

    They dont require personal details to act on complaints since they know the culture of vendetta in local government.

    Hope this helps.
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  18. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    Whilst I would suggest that you are exaggerating the numbers of innocents slain to make your point, I am certainly not indifferent to innocent victims being slain. But what can I do? I am married into a devout Duterte-supporting family - my brothers-in-law helped to organize his campaign - I am a foreigner and was a visitor in their country. I'm told that a sizable number of the killings are not drugs-related but by those using the current climate to settle old scores or because of debts that haven't been paid. But the majority are drugs-related. Previous administrations have simply ignored the growing drugs problem and there are sincerely held suspicions that some in the ruling class profited through pay-offs and donations. Local Police Officers up and down the land receive(d) regular pay-0ffs from drug-dealers, bar owners and sex industry bosses (including child porn) as "protection". Do you really imagine that the pay scale of a senior PNP Inspector is high enough for him to afford a Mercedes SUV, support his family and pay for a mistress - including paying for her rent and bills? When we lived in Cebu, there was such an inspector. Others have bought large plots and built quite luxurious houses. It is this wide-scale criminality that Duterte stamped-out in Davao and now seeks to do nationally.

    It's what the people want and it's why the people elected him as their President.

    We have to respect their choice.

    Many of the Filipinos who oppose him are educated and have (comparatively) well-paying jobs. One of the by-products of Duterte's wider campaign will be a growth in living standards and these people will find it harder to buy their way through bureaucracy as corruption is stamped-out. Rising prices will make it more expensive for them to employ maids and yayas - who currently endure very low wages and often cruel conditions - and their status in society will be diminished. And they hate the prospect of that and they hate that they - and their political place-men are not in control. Bit like the Lib Dems (or SNP) and Ukip.

    You do know that:
    • There's no trial by jury, cases are tried by a judge sitting alone
    • Trials are not conducted from start to finish in consecutive sessions but take place in a series of one hour hearings once a month or so - and only then if everyone involved remembers to turn up and with the correct set of notes.
    • Serious offences are not bailable but for those that are, few can afford bail bonds so are remanded in jail for months and months awaiting the start of their trial
    • Hearsay evidence is permitted
    • Exhibits are not sealed nor, in the case of computers, phones etc., is their integrity preserved; incriminating evidence can and sometimes is planted. Computer "experts" are invariably not.Of course
    • Witness statements are known to have been changed by corrupt lawyers - mostly prosecutors but often can not be challenged in court because the witness goes "missing", yet their statement remains part of the trial bundle.
    • Prosecution witnesses may have been "persuaded" to change their oral evidence - I know of several instances in one trial where this has happened (along with modified written statements), so desperate were the prosecutors
    • Many judges are corrupt
    The average Filipino has no faith in the justice system and that's one reason why the aggrieved may seek other forms of justice.

    Of course I advocate the principals of arrest, investigation, fair trial and its outcome. But that presupposes a society that's (by and large) not corrupt and has a long and fine history of fairness: that describes the UK but sadly not the Philippines. Duterte seeks to change that.
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  19. Methersgate
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    Methersgate Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    oh good, he's at it again:

    http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/news...artial-law-jokes-maka-rape-ka-akin-yun/story/

    I was chatting to my sister in law yesterday; she is a teacher in Molave. Her Muslim neighbours are taking in their relatives fleeing from Marawi. The only aid programme for refugees from Marawi that I know of (and of course there may be others) is in Cagayan de Oro and I know about it because a friend is helping with it. My sister in law and her children (she is a widow) are now living under a Martial Law curfew.

    Where is the Government programme to assist these refugees?
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  20. Numpters
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    Numpters Active Member

    1. State-sponsored or not, Duterte is condoning these murders by encouraging them and not doing anything about them. He’s the president and yet he doesn’t care that his citizens are being murdered? What kind of a leader is he?

    3. Shaming and insulting women ARE actions. It’s good that he started those programs, really, but just because he did doesn’t mean he’s less of a misogynist. A thief remains a thief even when he gives to the poor.

    4. Kowtowing =/= building a relationship. China in particular has bullied the Philippines (and our poor fishermen) on more than one occasion. Isn’t Duterte quick to curse and assert sovereignty when other countries go against the government? Why does he back down when it comes to China? Why the double standard? I assume you have no problem with him giving up our territorial rights, either? The ones he promised he’d fight for last elections?

    5. A government where who you know is more important than what you can do, and the unqualified and undeserving are excused: “Let them prove themselves first.” The government is not a place where people get paid to check if they're qualified - why are we making it that way? And we’re wondering why the Philippines remains a developing country.

    6. Been meaning to ask. Are you pro-Marcos?


    @Maley I'll always reply until I say otherwise but sorry I’m not able to reply as quickly as I want to. Have other things going on.
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
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