What position of strength is that, Graham? What exactly does our £9.1 billion nett annual contribution (as of 2016) buy us - other than the ability to be bossed around by a country we fought two wars to prevent them bossing us around!
We never had a position of strength in the EU, or much influence either, Cameron's so called renegotiation just before the referendum was called showed us all that. Better free to make our own laws and decide our own destiny without having to take other EU countries into consideration. You know it makes sense Graham old chap, or you will do in a few years time
You just said what they were. World wars? Is that how you look at this? I've certainly never felt bossed about by Germany. I've always liked feeling part of the bigger community that is the EU. I don't really care much for the politics of it, to be honest. I just saw us as part of a bigger community and was always happy with that and proud to be part of that. It was very disappointing for me to see us pull away from it and people getting all nationalistic about it. I'm not really into that. Both sides keep banging on about the economy but that's not really my own issue because only time will tell on that front.
In a few years tome someone will eventually get elected on a pro EU ticket, because these things just happen. And when they do we will probably rejoin along with joining the euro and Schengen.
I don't share your view Graham, in a few years time the EU will still be in decline and we will have moved on as a Nation and the referendum will be forgotten, maybe without our Scottish friends.
So you're unable to tell me what our £9.1 billion nett contribution pays for. I do know that we part pay for a organisation whose auditors refuse to pass its accounts year after year after year; for unelected commissioners to dictate what we shall and shall not do, for which they get paid eye-wateringly large sums of money on which they pay almost no tax. So you don't think we should take lessons from history so that we don't repeat the same mistakes. The health of our economy is very important. How else are we to fund our schools, social services, retirement pensions, our Enn-Aitch-Ess? Getting the economy right isn't a matter of chance but planning.
The Euro and Schengen were most certainly lined up for us if the Brexit vote had gone the other way. What an awful thought.
Don't really care about a nett 9.1 billion contribution. Straight over my head that one, I'm afraid. There will be arguments both ways on thst but I'll leave those to people who give a ****. Lessons from history? The lesson of history, surely, is to keep Europe together and united. Britain has comprehensively failed to learn the lessons of history by putting a wedge between itself and its allies for reasons that still escape me. Enjoy your brexit. Hopefully it will all turn out fine. Personally I am very disappointed in this country. Yes the economy is important but I don't claim to know much about it, unlike most people who, all of a sudden, seem to think they are experts. And whichever way the economy goes, those who voted brexit will point to the positives, those who voted remain will point out the negatives, and I won't have a clue which side is closer to the truth, but will assume that both are just giving selective truths.
Why? We opted out of both, so why were they lined up for us. Would save a fortune in spouse visa fees, mind!
Unlike you, I run a business in the U.K. and employ 6 people plus 2 part time plus 1 apprentice training to become an accountant. Why the f would I want the economy to fail? My turnover is forecast to be down 12% at the end of my financial year - the European element of my business is down 19% whilst a number of U.K. based clients are holding back from making big infrastructure decisions due to Brexit (Don't believe me, you're more than welcome to come to my office to hear the stories I hear on a daily basis). That's after posting increases in the last 6 years including an 8% turnover increase between June 2015 - June 2016. You flippantly, and arrogantly, suggested my business would face exciting new challenges a while back. Disgraceful arrogance peppered with ignorance served with a dollop of "I'm alright Jack, all you need to do is work harder". The figures I produced add some unwelcome balance to your selective "reporting". I'm facing a big decision in the next 3 months and suspect I will have to let someone go. From my vantage point (and I admit you definitely know more about dealing with Councils and European suppliers with your expertise in reading a newspaper and sending the link) - the economy is on its way to stagnating. The economy is a huge juggernaut and changes take months and years to show. If worse comes to worse, perhaps the people who post here having never run a business and, further, not currently running a business, can offer my potential ex employee some advice about manning up and getting on with it. Or, better still, give me advice on facing exciting new challenges whilst making the sorts of decisions that cost you months of sleep at night. You're quite skilful in reading the news, and on relaying the messages that you think people should hear. You're not so skilful in understanding how the bigger picture is not yet developed, nor how many businesses are hamstrung at present. If you want more evidence, try looking at Capita's results and reasons for the results over the last 9 months. £300m plus wiped off their shares, much of it attributable to clients holding back on making big decisions in the current climate. Furthermore, I asked you to provide evidence that Britain would definitely be in Schengen and the Euro if they remained in the EU. Where is the evidence?
It is becoming more apparent that your dislike and distrust of Europe is based in 1939. Germany wasn't bossing us around. My own trade with German firms is, essentially, seeing me employ one full time person on £18,921 a year. That person paid £2,885 in tax and NI a year working purely on German clients in my small business. Further, I paid taxes of about £20k on business done with Germany (including VAT) plus my employers NI. So, whilst I acknowledge that this doesn't get close to paying the 9.1bn contributions, I suggest that you consider that my business, and other businesses, currently contribute to the treasury as a result of dealing directly with the Germans (btw, don't mention the war, I did once but think I got away with it)! Do you really see things as simply as this?
BTW, some here think we are being dictated to by Germany. Germany and France think that the U.K. is dictating to them! If you're sat in a room with 5 or 6 partners, there will be times when you don't get your own way. You can do a number of things but, since people here see things in monochrome (win/lose, good/bad, hello/goodbye), I will give the two main options. 1). Go off meekly, take your ball home, sulk and insist they are worse off without you 2) Accept that, sometimes, you get outvoted. But in those times - "man up", "grow a pair" and attempt to influence the next decision.
Markham has been unable to provide evidence that this was definitely going to happen. Can you help him please?
Have you pinched my crystal ball? Two views, neither factual. One thing I will repeat - the younger voters wanted to remain. In 10 years time, the dynamics will be different. If everything else remains constant, I think Graham will be right.
In the interest of balance - and to avoid being labelled a doom monger http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39544130 Good news for our much loved bankers. Interesting quote, though, "Banks have had contingency plans since before the Brexit referendum in some cases," he said. "They have known there is a possibility that Britain will not be in the single market - that has now been confirmed." Those bankers should have checked with the experts here - apparently they knew that Britain would definitely be leaving the single market. Here's Tory Leadership hopeful Boris Johnson in 2016. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html Here's Boris in 2013 (in between hosting satirical quiz shows) http://www.open-britain.co.uk/boris_johnson_id_vote_to_stay_in_the_single_market Here's Boris with Prosecco on his mind, oh - and staying in the Single Market! http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris...-in-single-market-because-of-prosecco-2016-11
What mistakes were we making pre-June 23rd 2016 that may have resulted in WW3? BTW, I am not indicating that we are about to go to war with Germany (I'll leave that for Lord Howard and some of the other old fogies who think Britain is still a super power). But, you seem to be suggesting that we were about to repeat the same mistakes. Can you elaborate?
It appears I have my own crystal ball now bluebird old boy, I'm getting as bad as you for speculating on our future without any facts to back it up I guess that in 10 years the dynamics will be different, as in the youngsters you talk about will not have even heard of Brexit, 10 years is a long time, whether you have a crystal ball or not The Lib Dems may even be in Government in 10 years time, time to smash my crystal ball I think, that will never happen in a million years
Here's a couple of people who changed their minds. On the 24th of June (i.e. the day after they voted to leave). http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/leave-voters-changed-minds-voting-8275841
If the vote had been to remain in the EU, that would have been used as the tipping point for full integration, the opt-outs would not have lasted long. For me, one of the strangest memories of the Brexit campaign was Camerons "renegotiations" for further limited opt-outs. Before the talks he had looked confident, certain that he would achieve what he wanted. Afterwards he looked like he had just been taken into the headmasters office for a jolly good thrashing, his confidence totally gone.
