IB Diploma or "A" Levels: Which Is Better for a 21st Century Student?

Unnecessary stereo-typing.

Unlike you, John, I don't feel the need to use emoticons to punctuate my posts and my comment was said with tongue firmly in cheek.

I accept that but you're intimately involved in what is really a niche area. Not everyone wants to work on an oil exploration platform miles out at sea or stuck in some desert camp in the Gulf. There are many, many other careers to choose from. I also accept that possibly if one wants to spend one's entire life in one niche industry, such as yours, then A levels may be better. At the moment. But no two people are alike and sometimes people want to, or have to, take a different career path to the one they started out on. For them an IB Diploma would be more suitable. My own career came to an abrupt end when P&O decided to cease general cargo and mainline passenger ship voyages, sold or scrapped most of its fleet and made a huge number of officers and men redundant. I would have been better prepared had I followed an IB programme - but such was not available to me.

First of all, if an IB Diploma is so "wishy-washy" as you claim, how come it has been going for the last 40+ years and is becoming increasingly more popular? And how come industry figures such as Lord Digby Jones (the former Director-General of the CBI) believe it to be the future in education? Have you actually spoken to anyone who's doing or has completed an IB Diploma? I have. Have you sat in on an IB class? I have. The students I have spoken with certainly do not consider it to be "wishy-washy" or an easy option, in fact quite the reverse. Many of them believe that A levels are the easy option.

The IB programme has been around for over 40 years and it is not subject to political tinkering as the government of the day has no say in its curriculum. Conversely we have in our lifetime witnessed a general dumbing-down of educational standards, never more so than under the last Labour government with its aim that 50% of school leavers should go on to university.

Oh, more stereo-typing.

And again!

I had hoped when I started this topic that, if you were going to make a response, you would find some prominent academic to back-up your point of view.

You are right. Do you buy an iPhone or a Samsung Galaxy whatnot? Its a similar kind of thing just a bit more important to say the least.

Most definitely a case of it depends a lot on what you and your children are looking for.

In Methersgate's case he can see how one way might suit one child and another way might suit another.

A major consideration, no doubt, but one of many.

That's the last thing we need. A prominent academic involved!

In my game education is a business. Not an academic exercise and is tailored to industry. That requirement is not the be all and end all, granted, but a large rational for education in the first place (not the only reason of course). I do believe the world needs graduates in French Impressionism or Roman Studies (both of which I have an interest in) but not too many I hope. Its easy to see what is required, looking down from the top end and being able to see the end result and what form of education is best. An academic is not the person needed here but someone who is familiar with what industry needs.

On your own career. I still believe that specialising is the best option. If you had taken the IB it wouldnt have helped you. No one is interested in what minor subject is taken to make up the numbers in an IB curriculum, later in anyone's career. Few, if any, employers will take any notice.

On the petroleum industry being niche. Well it isn't as niche as you might think. It hires from a broad spectrum of graduates. The area I am involved in is niche, but there are many niches.

The biggest problem with a wishy washy IB is that it encourages those that don't know why they are going on to university and encourages students to take a wishy washy degree in Triple Joint Art History, History and Philosophy, for example. OK for the Civil Service, for example but not so good for industry.

Well that's a bit overly simplistic in its appraisal and again innacurate. I don't work in either of those locations.

Two of the things that attracts young people into the industry are that (a) there is indeed a big wide world out there and it gives them the opportunity to travel at their employer's expense and see it and (b) the time off is very generous. You could include a third which is the money.

Apologies: my brain was saying "educator" but my fingers typed "academic" and I did indeed mean "educator" as it is they who have to counsel and teach our young.

But as you don't take my word, nor that of a Headmaster of one of Britain's top schools, how about Richard Emborg, director of student recruitment and undergraduate admissions at Durham University (found here):

Or Tim Wolffenden, an adviser to state and private schools, who says (same link):

Still unconvinced? Then how about this quote from "Re:locate, magazine for Human Resources, global managers and relocation professionals", 17 May 2011 (found here):

Or this, published in The Independent last year:

So 20% of IB Diploma students, but only 14.5% of A level students, get first class honours degrees. Interesting!

Anyone who is interested in the IB programme for their children, the Higher Education Standards Agency has published a very interesting report "International Baccalaureate Students studying at UK
Higher Education Institutions: How do they fare?" and here are two extracts:

and

And if you look at figure 10 in that document, you'll find that more IB students did engineering and technology degrees than A level ones. The same is true for medicine. And, what's more, IB students are more likely to get first class honours degrees in those subjects.

I rest my case!

Far from being a narrow niche one can see what the petroleum industry has to offer in the UK and of course all around the globe aswell. A lot of career potential in the industry at a variety of levels.

http://www.myoilandgascareer.com/career-planner

Which expert said that? Fluent in another language indeed. I think that person is trying to sell IB rather than give a balanced appraisal.

I'm not disputing that but not everyone would want to have a career in oil and gas.

Well, sad to say, but that simply demonstrates just how little you know about the IB Diploma programme.

You're not able to provide any quotation from an educator or an industry figure that supports your assertion that A levels are superior to "wishy-washy" IB Diplomas (your words, not mine), so instead you pour scorn on the whole idea, peppered with a few facile stereo-typical remarks. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the views you have expressed are merely your own and are not representative of industry and commerce in general or the petro-gas sector in particular.

Perhaps a more balanced appraisal of IB v A Levels

How to choose between A-levels and IB
To choose between A-levels and International Baccalaureate, ask whether you are a specialist or an all-rounder.

"This is the time of year when Year 11 students across the country are enrolling at sixth-form open mornings to consider their future options. One factor they increasingly need to consider is whether to study A-levels or the International Baccalaureate.
With 150 British schools and colleges now registered to offer the IB – still a very small proportion of the schools in England – there is a very real alternative to the traditional A-level route to university entrance.
So what are the differences? First up, the International Baccalaureate. The IB is divided into six groups: language, second language, individuals and societies, mathematics and computer science, experimental sciences and the arts. Three of these groups are taught at a “higher” level, and more teaching hours are allocated to them. In addition, pupils complete an extended essay, follow a Theory of Knowledge course (TOK) and participate in the CAS (Creativity, Action, Service) programme, which encompasses sport, arts and community work.
Such a spread of subjects suits all-round pupils who don’t wish to drop from around 10 GCSEs to three or four AS subjects; the emphasis on personal research undoubtedly prepares pupils effectively for the academic and organisational rigours of university life. However, all six subject groups must be completed, meaning that one weaker subject can drag down an entire IB score.
Many regard this as the fundamental weakness of the IB. A poor showing in an area of the curriculum that a student is not actually very interested in could cost him or her their university place."

"It is crucially important that students realise this. And if they want evidence to support it, they need only look at the success rate of IB and A-level students in securing places at their first or second-choice universities. For A-level applicants, there is an 81 per cent success rate, but for IB it is only 69 per cent.
Another factor to bear in mind is that the IB is much more time consuming. Some students relish this pressure but others complain that it eats into time they would rather devote to drama, music or sport. Perversely, an exam system designed to create a broader education can, for some students, have the opposite effect.
A-levels, of course, are an established commodity. The vast majority of British sixth-formers sit them (compared to only 0.49 per cent who follow the IB) and universities and employers certainly understand them more readily. Students generally opt to study four subjects at AS level from around 80 available subjects, dropping down in most cases to three A2 level subjects in the Upper Sixth.
There is more breadth than there used to be – the fourth subject at AS was introduced for this very reason – and there is also now more stretch and challenge, reflected in the introduction of the A* at A-level – which is actually harder to achieve than the top mark of seven in the IB. It definitely suits those who know what they want to do and is particularly advantageous for scientists: under the A-level, students can study physics, chemistry and biology, whereas the IB restricts students to two sciences.
Those students who opt for A-levels and wish to broaden their horizons further can also do an extended project, the EPQ (Extended Project Qualification) on a topic of their choice. In other words, today’s A-level programme is very different from that of 20 years ago. It has responded to the critics and to the challenges posed by the rival IB qualification, and it now offers students stretch, challenge and breadth.
So which one is for you? If Ucas statistics are anything to go by, the vast majority of schools and students are sticking with the A-level. It is better than it used to be and no less an institution than Cambridge University recently rode to the defence of AS exams. But there is no doubt also that the IB can be brilliant for a certain type of student: the genuine all-rounder who also has the appetite for work that the broad IB curriculum demands.
My advice to Year 11 students is the same as the motto carved into the wall of the oracle’s temple at Delphi: know thyself. Think very deeply about what would best suit you as an individual.
And remember, the best sixth formers are not outstanding because they follow the A-level or the IB, they are outstanding because they have teachers who inspire them intellectually. That is what you must look for as you head from one open day to another."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...37/How-to-choose-between-A-levels-and-IB.html

The above article in the Telegraph has a better skew to it. I looked at the paper in the link Markham and there were some oddities.

There are so many holes in that statement it is laughable. It is clearly a "salesman" talking. That source is highly suspect.

Produced by the Analytical Services team at the Higher Education Statistics Agency on
behalf of the International Baccalaureate Organization, April 2011



I also noticed the source of entrants with IBs to UK Universities, are mainly from overseas.

And the number of schools and pupils actually sitting the IB in the UK are still small. I noticed that many private / independent schools still wont touch them.

When my daughter was at school, the way around the the topping out with 3 A levels was dealt with, IE where the pupil was more than capable of getting 3 straight As at A level, was to give them a 4th to do. So no real need for the IB in that sense.

I think the IB is just trendy just now, possibly aggravated by the A Level inflation.

Also, did you notice that IB students fall on their faces at postgraduate course entrance? They fizzle out as they have no depth to their education.

The other stuff, Theory of Knowledge and the essay, looks just like General Studies in drag - TAK and CAS.

Also, I used to see all the CVs coming into my previous employer, probably around 200 or so at the time over several years and none had IBs. All graduates.

Ha! Trust you to find an article written by the head of a school that doesn't even offer the IB Diploma! There are, in fact, 177 schools offering IB as an alternative to A levels, not 150 as stated and the statistics you've highlighted are completely inaccurate according to the HESA Report I linked to earlier.

Other than that, I agree, quite reasonably balanced.

The Flip Side to the Trendiness of IB - Badly suited to university education where students specialise.

The International Baccalaureate is completely overrated. It doesn't do sixth-formers justice

"During the last ten years, dozens of British schools started to offer their sixth-formers alternatives to A-levels. It is obvious why the trend caught on: A-levels were in disgrace because of dumbing down and grade inflation; and in the competitive struggle for top university places schools sought to provide their pupils with a less devalued qualification. The International Baccalaureate Diploma was one of the most popular. But it has been reported recently that King’s College School in Wimbledon (consistently one of the top-performing schools in league tables) is re-introducing the option to study A-levels instead of the IB. And last year, the total number of schools offering the IB fell.
A headmaster of another school said the reintroduction of A-levels at KCS is “a bit like the Welsh rugby team moving to rugby league”. This reflects the general attitude towards the IB in schools where it is offered. They think it's glamorous – attractive to foreign students, impressive to universities, and a better way for “exceptional” candidates to show their strengths.
But this simply isn't the case. Pupils studying the IB study six subjects (as opposed to the traditional three or four A-levels), and these must include maths, English, a language, science, a humanities subject and an arts subject. This is prescriptive and badly-suited to the British university system, where students specialise. To give an example (from personal experience), someone wanting to study a Classics degree at a British university would usually want to take Latin, Greek and a modern language in the sixth-form – under the IB, this is not possible. And the nature of the programme makes it more expensive to teach, leading to higher fees in independent schools and greatly increased budgetary pressures in state schools.
The IB offers breadth, but A-levels offer depth – which is more important, and better for the student. We should be proud of a system that encourages sixth-formers to study the subjects they enjoy and intend to make use of in life, rather than forcing them to continue with things they may hate. How many of Britain’s scientists would have gained anything from studying George Eliot until the age of 18 – and how many artists would have wanted to take chemistry? Although in recent years A-levels have become discredited, regulators are now undoing that damage. Harder exams and the A-star grade are restoring confidence in the qualification, and this is good news. The programme is the best on offer by far."

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/i...overrated-it-doesnt-do-sixth-formers-justice/

No wonder I thought the above sounded like a sales pitch.

There is a large school of thought worldwide that IB is a product with a successful marketing team . Truth about IB, from New Zealand:

http://truthaboutib.com/isibsuperior.html

"I want to make this short. I 100% agree with you and your website. I wish the rest of the world would wake up. I have worked at a small international school for 15 years. It was a beautiful school, with great education and lots of fun for the students. Unfortunately 5 years ago, the new head (who came from an infected IB school) decided to bring his agenda to our school. It started out as a diploma school and now it has turned into a pyp school. I love this city and this country, but my daughter is now 16 and because of the costs and time restrictions put on the school for IB classes, we can no longer offer a normal High School diploma and clubs/electives. I am leaving this international school and going home where she can be educated in a normal school where she doesn't have to stay up until midnight studying and actually have loads of fun"

http://truthaboutib.com/intnlibteachersspeak.html

But that report was commisioned by IB. Its bound to be skewed.

From Oxford University.....thats good enough for me:

"A-levels and the International Baccalaureate are both eligible qualifications for entry to our undergraduate degrees. We do not weight either of these qualifications as ‘better’ than the other, since both are eligible for entry, and all applications are considered very carefully on their individual merits.

In general, however, the IB could be considered a good grounding for multi-disciplinary Arts subjects who involve elements of many different subjects at school. On the other hand, students who wish to specialise in a particular Science at Oxford may find that the concentration of three subjects at A-level provides them more with the focus necessary for an intense subject-specific degree.

Please note these comments are intended to be general. The success rates for students applying with the IB and students applying with A-levels are broadly similar, and that the choice of qualification (as long as it is an eligible qualification as specified on our website) plays no part in the selection criteria for our courses. We would advise students to select the qualification which they feel best offers the teaching style from which they would most benefit."

https://uni-of-oxford.custhelp.com/...-oxford-prefer,-a-levels-or-the-international

And from the Daily Mail, which must be true :

The Baccalaureate backlash: Scores of private school pupils who ditched A-levels fail to get into university

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-pupils-ditched-A-levels-fail-university.html

I was told by their mother that it would have been A levels at Gordonstoun. They moved to another school a couple of years ago and did / are doing IB. The mothers opinion is simply that IB gives more breadth and A levels more depth and that you choose what suits your child.