Brexit talks have begun

20 pager.

No Mike, what I'm saying is that neither Bremainer nor Brexit have got what they want, and we are going to be left in the Twilight Zone between being a member of the EU and being out of it. It's a typical politico's fudge, and a pretty damning indictment of our politicians abilities to follow instructions.

I make no secret of my wish for the UK to remain in the EU, but as I am constantly reminded, the people have spoken. I would imagine that the probable outcome will be equally unappetising to the Brexiter as it is to me.

If the people have voted to leave, then a soft Brexit is not what they asked for.

Here's another little problem for Maybe... the DUP are playing hard ball (well, what a surprise!)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...talks-delay-no-commons-majority-a7799501.html

and no deal is expected before the Queen's Speech ...- as soon as one is announced, there will be a legal challenge...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/20/theresa-may-faces-legal-challenge-proposed-deal-dup

Chris.

I have agreed with, and appreciated many of your earlier posts, but your recent, ridiculous, ill thought out, anti-British rants are well off target.

You take the very reasons why we need to leave, and present them as the reason why we should not have decided to leave.

Is this the garbage that the Spanish press is pumping out?

There is no soft Brexit, we are leaving.

HOW DARE YOU accuse someone of being "anti-British" just because he is not of your particular conviction.

If you have any decency at all you will apologise right now

Point of order: Dave did not accuse Chris of being anti-British but what he wrote was. His exact words were: "your recent, ridiculous, ill thought out, anti-British rants". There is a difference. It seems to me that on your side you take the view that you can say what they hell you like about anybody and everybody you disagree with but woe betide anyone who says anything against anyone of your beliefs. This is the kind of intolerance, brought-in by so-called progressives and the hard left which is causing massive division in our country.

So says the man who earlier today posted a threat to murder a British politician if he ever met "Nigel Farage", just because he is not of your particular conviction.

Has that been deleted now? good decision if so.

Are you really that stupid? I suppose that you probably are.

And we can do without your smarmy self righteousness

"Smarmy self righteousness"? Oh Andrew, you really shouldn't try to project your own shortcomings onto others lest you lay yourself open to accusations of intolerant hypocrisy!

@Dave_E

I am far from anti-British. I'm concerned about the way the United Kingdom appears to have become so polarised in its viewpoints, and so intransigent when it comes to discussing them. Even your own reply to me stating my opinion is full of aggression. It has become the norm for people to launch a shock-and-awe attack on anyone who presents an alternative viewpoint.

My view is that I never wanted Brexit. I wanted Britain to lead the EU into becoming what it could be, to pull Europe away from its fixation with a Federal United States of Europe, to pull away from the folly of the formation of a European Army, to pull away from plans to bring in Turkey and the Balkan States and to have a period - possibly lasting decades before any further plans are launched to give the smaller states - the PIGS and the former Soviet Bloc states chance to catch up a little, and benefit from the assistance provided by the EU.

The EU is disparate - full of pauper countries sucking up to France and Germany, and with Britain's exit, they (FR & D) will have free rein to dominate and use the resources of these countries to expand their own ambitions.

But enough of Europolitics. From a personal point of view, I'm very happy here in Spain and don't want to go back to Britain. As much as I am proud of my country and its heritage, I really don't want to live there. A punishing divorce and other personal disasters stripped me of my wealth and I came to Spain to begin again. Were I forced to return to Britain, I would do so with very little in the way of potential income in comparison to my past, no savings to speak of and face the prospect of living in social housing into my retirement. Perhaps a decade from now I would have built up sufficient funds to consider it, but right now and extending to the forecast date for Brexit, it would be yet another kick in my financial teeth. Consequently, from a personal point of view, I'm a Remainer.

My personal politics are about as right-wing as Methersgate's are left-wing, but I think we are both traditionalists who believe in the character of the British people. I think that no other country on Earth could survive the storm which is bearing down upon us.

I am also a great believer in democracy, and the people have indeed spoken. Whether I believe they were lied to and tricked is another thing, and frankly irrelevant. The people have voted to leave the EU. That's what they should get, and they are being sold a pup.

But the point I was trying to make (and seem to have done so badly) is that, to coin a gridiron reference, we have fumbled. It is all going a bit pear-shaped. Teresa May was planning on having a landslide victory and huge majority with which to armour herself in the coming battle with the EU negotiating team. As it turned out, she doesn't even have a majority.

This is the shooting oneself in the foot that I referred to. She now needs to approach the EU with less than 50% of the MPs in parliament belonging to her party, and has been forced to team up with some Unionist ne'er-do-wells in order to cross the line.

The Hard Brexit that the electorate voted for has been ditched in favour of a wishy-washy version that leaves Britain impotent and a puppet of the EU. Being out, but not out out as Micky Flanagan would say. And shooting oneself in the foot again.

Britain will be required to make payments to the EU in order to gain access to the EU market. We will be required to continue to respect the four freedoms - freedom of movement of people, goods & services and capital. This is not what the electorate chose for its future.

Inter-European immigration will continue.
Payments to the EU will continue
Control over our legislation will continue

And we will have lost any opportunity to influence the future of the EU.

Even as a Remainer who should be quietly happy that my status quo will almost certainly remain as was, I can see that this is a disastrous deal for the UK. I don't think many Brexiters either can view this as the result they wanted and I'm surprised at the animosity my posts have generated, because whichever side you were on, nobody voted for halfway-in or halfway-out, and that is what we are being offered.

I think that there should be another referendum once the deal has been concluded, with the probability that the electorate will turn round to Britain's negotiating team and tell them that the Soft Brexit that they have returned with is not what we ordered them to do.

Further reading: The Guardian - The Express - The Daily Mail

Although we have different views - you're a remainer, I am not - your post is well-measured, friendly and non-confrontational and for that, I applaud you

As you know, like you, I live in a EU27 country but I voted for Britain to leave the EU not for myself - I would barely benefit - but for my two young children. They currently have two passports each and will be able to apply for Maltese ones in the fullness of time. I want them to maximise their potential and be able to choose where they work and live, be that in the UK, the Commonwealth or Europe.

It is, I'm afraid a myth, that Britain could have been a force for reform if she remained a member of the EU. That was supposed to have been one of the benefits of our six month tenure of the Presidency and Blair made loads of promises but not only did he deliver zilch, but he gave away billions of our (Thatcher's) hard won rebates. Cameron had a go last year with a very unambitious "shopping list" of reforms that, if the EU agreed to them, he was confident in winning the referendum: Europe gave him nothing and the electorate gave him the "wrong" result.

You are absolutely correct in identifying the dangers associated with a Franco-German superstate and we should not forget the many lives that were lost in trying to prevent something similar some seventy years ago. Like you, I live in a country that has suffered from the economic and monetarist policies imposed by the Germany controlled European Central Bank. The Euro has been the cause of much hardship here: look around and you'll see unfinished building projects everywhere, and many, many empty shops and business premises for lease. Malta's two exports are both invisible: gaming and tourism and if the EU27 decides to punish Britain by cancelling all the expat residents permits and forcing holiday makers to apply for visas, the combined effect on Malta's economy would be catastrophic. But you won't hear much about the one million British expats from the arch-Europhiles who only seem concerned with the 3.3 million migrants in the UK.

I both think and hope you are wrong about Britain's terms for exit. There is no such thing as a "soft Brexit" just as there is no such thing as a "hard Brexit". There is only Brexit and that means leaving the EU, the Single Market and the Customs Union, points repeatedly made to erstwhile leaders of the Lib Dems and repeated this very week by Philip Hammond, David Davis and Monsieur Barnier. Hammond defines "soft Brexit" as meaning there will be a transition period. Personally I can't see a European army being anything other than a few ceremonial soldiers. Our European allies can't even stump-up the cash to pay their NATO membership fees, can you really imagine them stumping-up even more as the US won't be a member and therefore a major contributor; a ridiculous notion.

And why should we continue to pay £350 million a week into the EU's coffers? Is that the tariff for tariff-free trade?!

The enemy within

I don't disagree with all of your analysis but the above statement is a real jaw-dropper and an huge insult to the memory of the estimated 600,000 French who lost their lives (military & civilian) as a direct result of fascist militarism & expansion.

Germany's empire building under Hitler was not of course a joint project with France as your Franco-German statement suggests.