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Climate Change.

Discussion in 'General Chit Chat' started by aposhark, Sep 14, 2021 at 10:45 AM.

  1. aposhark
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    aposhark Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

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  2. aposhark
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    aposhark Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

  3. JohnAsh
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    JohnAsh Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021 at 12:20 PM
  4. Druk1
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    Druk1 Well-Known Member

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  5. JohnAsh
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    JohnAsh Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    Wise words.
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  6. JohnAsh
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    JohnAsh Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    I liked @oss take on it. Basically if we don’t do something about it the Mother Earth will. Or putting it another way, we got ourselves into this mess so it’s going to be us that has to dig ourselves out of it or else the planet will heal itself.
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  7. Mattecube
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    Mattecube Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    So basically let's do something about it and pretend my flight half way round the world doesn't count!
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  8. JohnAsh
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    JohnAsh Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

  9. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    That statement is known as the Appeal to Hypocrisy fallacy, also known as Tu quoque - Wikipedia, it's a means of avoiding addressing the issue.
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  10. JohnAsh
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    JohnAsh Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    I believe it’s going to have to be governments that enforce the necessary changes (or create the “environment” for change) as given the choice, the individual won’t make those changes.
  11. JohnAsh
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    JohnAsh Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

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  12. Mattecube
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    Mattecube Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    I was addressing your comment on another thread that ""If we don't do something about it then mother earth will" which is fine as long as we don't jump on aeroplanes ourselves.
    The Wikipedia link made good reading
  13. aposhark
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    aposhark Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    There is a very important "not" missing from your sentence, JohnAsh.
  14. Mattecube
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    Mattecube Well-Known Member Trusted Member

  15. aposhark
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    aposhark Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    A burning monk and many other acts of defiance have changed many things.
    People power in the Philippines is another.
    Global unrest will destabilise countries everywhere.
    Brave people change the world.
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  16. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    He's not really missing it Mike, the point he's making and that I have made in the past is that the planet will heal itself by getting rid of us, it will heal itself on geological timescales but the cost will be the human race and countless other species which will be terminated.
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  17. JohnAsh
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    JohnAsh Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    Completely correct. It’s as clear as a bell. The planet self regulates, putting it simply.
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  18. JohnAsh
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    JohnAsh Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    We cannot free ourselves from the addiction of oil. And gas is in short supply right now. It wouldn’t surprise me to see hydraulic fracturing in the U.K. in the nearer future. They have been firing up the coal fired power stations recently.
  19. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    The appeal to hypocrisy fallacy is the attempt to dismiss anything said about a subject by pointing out hypocrisy in the individual making the statement.

    Your retort of that's fine as long as no one uses airplanes knowing that almost all people trying to raise awareness of the issue will use airplanes is an attempt to dismiss everything those people might say.

    I might as well retort, well you heat your home, cook, use refrigeration on your food and have electric lights and you probably drive a car, I might ask how big is your home because the bigger it is the larger its carbon cost is likely to be both in construction, maintenance and running costs, all of which are carbon costs.

    I don't specifically remember making that comment on a thread but I certainly would have and I would stand by it.

    You and others here have often used this pointing the finger technique when discussions relating to the environment come up, be it the actions of climate activists like Extinction Rebellion or Gretta Thunberg or her parents, it's used to dismiss the discussion to shut down discussion.

    On the specifics of aviation, it contributes 2.5% of the worlds greenhouse gas emissions, transport (including aviation) accounts for over 20% of global greenhouse gas emissions, so aviation is about one eighth of the transport problem and the transport problem is one fifth of the entire problem.

    By singling out the use of international travel you are implying that it is somehow the biggest issue, and as many on here have done in the past complaining about people travelling to conferences like the one about to be held in Glasgow, as many do, is again using the appeal to hypocrisy fallacy.

    I am not a climate activist, my carbon cost to this planet has mostly already happened because I have far fewer years ahead of me than behind me, it's a sunk cost, however I can and will comment on the realities that face and have faced the human race for all of my life, because if everyone acquiesces to the notion that they can't talk about the subject because they make use of one or more aspects of modern life, then yes governments around the world will do nothing, individual acts of protest all add up to apply pressure and the voice of pressure is getting louder as the crisis becomes more obvious.

    And as pointed out in other post here my comment was referring to the simple fact that if we do nothing then everything about our modern world will come to an end, the planet is self regulating it will remove our life support systems by that I mean our ability to maintain a technological society with a population of 7 billion and growing, there might still be humans around in 10,000 years but this technological world will never happen again because it only happened as a result of fossil sunlight and once that is spent you can't spend it again and the world those humans might live in will be far less hospitable than the world we are in now.

    Just a thought, one Land Rover Discovery costs about 35 tons of CO2 in manufacture alone, that's before it ever moves, a Mondeo is about 17 tons CO2, they use about the same again in fuel during their lifetime.

    My lifetime International travel costs are about 83.4 tons of CO2, I've probably made more long haul flights than most people all of it in the last 16 years, I almost never flew before that.

    upload_2021-9-14_23-21-41.png

    So here's my bit of whataboutism, what about all the people getting new cars every three years either through their leasing agreements or because their company pays for it, I make my cars last a long time and I've only ever owned one car that was close to being new.

    Talk about the solutions is important, change will be required from everyone, pointing fingers helps no one and talk that encourages fairness to others around the world is important.

    And to close, I've repeated ad nauseum that it's all too late, this had to be addressed 40 or 50 years ago and it wasn't, so in the immortal words of private Frazer "We're Doomed".
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  20. aposhark
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    aposhark Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

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