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Tories cut security support for antiquated Computer systems?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion and Ethics' started by Bluebird71, May 13, 2017.

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  1. Bluebird71
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    Bluebird71 Well-Known Member

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tories-cut-security-support-outdated-10413160

    So, along with nurses being capped at 1% pay rises forcing some into foodbanks, our most sensitive data is also at risk because of austerity!

    The National Debt has risen 70% under the Tory Government - from £960 billions to £1.7 trillion.

    I don't think the Tories are directly to blame (I can't imagine Jeremy Hunt made the decision not to extend maintenance) - but the lack of funding for the NHS is certainly forcing it to make risky choices that affect each and every one of us.
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  2. Timmers
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    Timmers Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    I wondered how long it would take before someone or some political party would try to make political gain out of the recent cyber-attacks.

    Shame on them.
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  3. Bluebird71
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    Bluebird71 Well-Known Member

    As I say, I don't think we can directly blame the Government. But, it is a fact that the Red Cross called the winter A&E problems a "humanitarian Crisis". The NHS is underfunded, it is being run down and some speculate that it is being run down for a specific purpose (that being privatisation).

    This is the latest in a long run of bad news stories involving the NHS.

    Further, remember I mentioned to you about the Snooper's Charter? Are you still confident that Government Agencies can protect your data?
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  4. Timmers
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    Timmers Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    For many years there have been stories about the NHS and privatisation, I doubt very much it will ever happen, the NHS cuts through all political barriers and will be protected by all.

    For example, if the Tories stated in their General Election manifesto that they were going to privatise the NHS do you think they would win the election?
  5. Bluebird71
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    Bluebird71 Well-Known Member

    Why do you think they would publicise it? The system is being run down. The NHS was in good health quite recently. The Tories are quick to blame Labour for any failure in Wales, they should also be willing to accept that some of their policies are to blame for the failings in England.
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  6. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    So if that article is correct the NHS is still running Windows XP extensively, actually I knew that anyway from recent visits to hospital.

    XP is past end of life, the end of support date for Windows operating systems is published pretty much on the day that the OS is released, and XP received several extensions I think.

    The deal they are referring to must have been a special enterprise deal arranged specially by Microsoft to continue patches for system vulnerabilities even after they had publically ceased to support anyone.

    So basically there has been deliberate policy for non replacement of computer systems not just last year but for many many years, as this is the kind of thing that any enterprise IT department would have built into its budget in terms of the lifecycle of its hardware.

    Normal enterprise refresh on systems is about 4 years, sometimes they will stay with the same OS for an extended period maybe even 2 cycles, they do that because of fears about software compatibility and issues with existing software being ported to a new OS.

    The reality though is that the vast majority of software will continue working on newer hardware and on a newer OS.

    I wonder how much this episode will have cost, in terms of time and the value of that time, I got a text the other day from the NHS telling me that I had an appointment next Wednesday first thing in the morning, it reminded me that failure to turn up would cost the NHS £100, I've not even had a letter from them yet about this appointment and it was lucky that I noticed the text as it is on my spare phone and I don't usually pay a lot of attention to it.

    So you can imagine the cost of this disruption.

    Next thing will be, did they have backups and more importantly were the servers hit as well?
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  7. Mattecube
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    Mattecube face the sunshine so shadows fall behind you Trusted Member

    Does this mean that people will know about my dodgy knee? Shame on you you naughty Tories.
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  8. Bluebird71
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    Bluebird71 Well-Known Member

    No, what I am saying is that - because of Theresa May's Snoopers Charter, 48 agencies are allowed to view and record anyone's internet browsing history. Agencies such as the NHS who are running XP and can easily be broken into.

    People think that the Snooper's Charter is there to catch criminals and terrorists - that if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. What about if an unscrupulous criminal gang managed to get the details? Does yesterday's news give those who think the snooper's charter is harmless still have that confidence?

    Also, what about if there is data theft? Your dodgy knee is trivial, but someone diagnosed with terminal cancer suddenly getting calls with miracle cures that cost just a few grand? It happens in America (where the information is sold onto such companies), can the NHS protect that data? It's going to cost money to protect it, who's going to pay?
  9. Mattecube
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    Mattecube face the sunshine so shadows fall behind you Trusted Member

    To be honest you would have to wrap every individual up in cotton wool to protect from risk, the world as I am sure you know isn't like that.
    Life is a risk it's limiting those risks that is necessary.
    It's very easy to politicise any occurrence with a slant to ones own political leaning coming up with an agenda to prevent or repair isn't so easy. Equally one cannot throw good money after bad on a broken system a line has
    s to been drawn.
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  10. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    It shows pretty poor taste to try to make political capital out of an event such as this. No one person or group of people is responsible. But, hey, if it floats a Corbynista boat ...
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  11. Mattecube
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    Mattecube face the sunshine so shadows fall behind you Trusted Member

    Good post just comment on one point , why do we all need letters to remind of appointment s they cost money we are there when the appointment is made! A text once set up is probably computer system driven and costs less than a letter if anything at all.
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  12. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    This wasn't a reminder, I had no information about the appointment at all apart from my consultant telling me they would call me in for a check-up in about 3 months.

    For many appointments the person needs quite a lot of instruction about what to do and where to go, an SMS text would not be appropriate, what I have always found strange is that government agencies in my experience will not communicate with you via email, as that would be a perfectly acceptable way to receive things like appointments, I can see some security reasons for not using email though.

    I expect the paper version will arrive a day or two before my appointment.
  13. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    Until sometime last year, Microsoft had an ongoing support contract with the NHS worth £5.5million a year but contrary to the OP's assertion, I've seen no evidence to support his belief that the government was the party that cancelled the contract. It could equally have been Microsoft since such a contract does, to an extent, undermine its operating system business model which is to get users to pay real money for a new version every few years. In reality, the only major thing that changes with each new version is the user interface, certain aspects of the (32 bit) kernel have been around since the first releases of Windows NT, albeit they have been refined over the years. I think its quite likely that many/most/all the affected PCs did not have any anti-virus programs installed which would have detected and dealt with this virus. A product such as Avira which provides real-time protection would have cost less than a fiver per PC given the large numbers of machines to be licensed. And for that, each Trust's IT support team must take the blame.

    At least the NHS is still treating patients; Telefonica, Spain's largest telecoms provider, is apparently completely off-air.
  14. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    You mean contrary to the Mirror's report, all the OP did was post a link to a newspaper report, so I guess you are dismissing that report out of hand?

    Yes it could have been Microsoft but I expect it would have been reported that way if it had been Microsoft.

    If they had been on any recent platform they would have had basic anti-virus support via Windows Defender which is far from as bad as people like to portray it, plus according to news reports patches for defender for this specific vulnerability had been released last month.

    I use Avira both paid for and the free editions, it is ok but has become steadily more demanding on resources over the last couple of years, it fails to find a great many things that Malwarebytes does find a combination of both anti-virus and Malwarebytes is really required on most machines.

    Whether or not they had anti-virus is however pure speculation, whereas if they were still running XP on a large number of machines then it is quite certain that they didn't have a working current version of Windows Defender.
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  15. Dave_E
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    Dave_E Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    This was not a virus attack, it was seemingly a very specialised piece of malware developed by the NSA (US National Security Agency), and stolen by the hackers. My understanding is that a standard virus checker would not provide defence against this.

    As for the Microsoft / NHS support contract being terminated, that seems irrelevant to this incident. The supported systems were Windows XP, and Microsoft had not produced a patch for that operating system, I believe that one may just have been released in the past few hours.

    Still not certain how this spread, did it self replicate over the network, or did each PC user click on an e-mail attachment?
  16. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    They are effectively saying that it was a worm, the news reports are saying the payload was delivered in emails other reports are saying the vulnerability was patched recently as in last month.

    The implication is that this was probably a variant of Stuxnet however that particular virus is designed to damage hardware so honestly that does not sound so likely.

    To me it sounds like a lucky break with a standard virus kit hitting the right place at the right time.
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  17. walesrob
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    walesrob Administrator Staff Member

    One national supermarket I used to work for still use DOS for most of their IT systems. I was at the head office speaking to one of their techies, and he said the cost would be prohibitive to upgrade the whole lot. On the plus side, all stores have no internet access as such, everything is company internal network. You cannot email anyone in stores, nor can anyone browse the internet from the stores.
  18. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    No, I was referring to the topic's title but as far as the Mirror article is concerned, I'm keeping an open mind but I suspect that the Mirror is using this as another club to bash Jeremty Hunt with.

    I use that same combination and agree that Avira has become a bit of a resource hog in recent years. I used to use F-Prot written by an Icelandic researcher, Fredrik Skulason.
  19. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    On reflection given the rate of spread this must have been a worm as email would not account for the sheer surface area that was hit.
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  20. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    The funding levels are under the Tories watch, and the first line of the Mirror article does state that the cabinet office and the DoH wrote to health chiefs explaining how dangerous it would be not to continue the support contract with Microsoft.

    So they were clearly aware of the problem.

    People in the NHS have been making it clear for a long time that there is just no more slack that can be taken out of the system in other words funding has been pared to the bone, running XP in todays world is a perfect example of that, add to that the middle management heavy structure that was brought in by the Tories back in Thatcher's day and allowed to develop for decades under all governments and you have a damn good explanation of where the waste really lies now.

    My family worked in the NHS my father as a Pharmacist and my sister as an Orthoptist, it was far better run in the days before the introduction of third party services.
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  21. Scotschap16
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    Scotschap16 Well-Known Member

    Tim - the NHS is de facto being privatised - agency / bank staff everywhere / Servo / Sodehexo running many ancillary services - remember the main reason a few years ago for increasing deaths from MRSA / C Diff - following privatisation of ward cleaning / PFI capital investment on the never never.

    The jewel in the social fabric of our nation is being wilfully and chronically underfunded - by the Party who cuts corporation tax and tax breaks for the wealthy. I guess those high earners won't care - they'll be ok on their private health insurance policies.

    Who's been Tory health secretary for past few years? Oh yes - Jeremy Hunt - the same Jeremy Hunt who in 2005 wrote a pamphlet calling for the NHS to be replaced by private insurance. And just look how successful that is in Trumpland.

    I wish I had your confidence Timmers but for some reason I'm reminded of the saying about Dracula and bloodbank.

    Gerry
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