Scottish Independence referendum part 2

Maybe it is the 62 % in Scotland that voted to remain.

I do not understand why the wee one didn't just keep quiet until the Brexit negotiations were over to avoid yet more uncertainty for the UK.

We will not know until the very end of Brexit what it will look like as deals are often struck at the very last minute.

She's potentially after concessions but her logic in the speech is quite sound. My main criticism is that the SNP have still not resolved the outstanding problems that plagued their campaign last time. Her major criticism is of May not communicating. Evidently she asked May in a call if they UK would want to stay in the customs union and May replied it was not a binary choice. Two hours later May announced that the UK would leave the customs union. Theresa May is not fit for purpose in my opinion and a very poor leader. she could drive the scots to independence just by her control freakery and refusal to to be inclusive.

Even the EU wouldn't be stupid enough to favour Scotland and their (well SNP) ridiculous demands over the rest of the UK.

The thing is, Sturgeon knew the UK would have to leave the single market and customs union to try and get immigration down.

I disagree regarding May being a poor leader, she is pretty solid, just what we need at this time in my opinion.

For me its the SNP that are driving Scottish independence not so much the people of Scotland.

The EU would not turn Scotland away and would allow them to be a candidate country. They would have to qualify for the ERM for two years though. Joining the likes of Norway and Iceland in EFTA/EEA though is much more likely, especially as there are also some cultural historical and industrial links

We can agree to disagree on this. I would question how many people voted for Leave knowing we would not be having our cake and eating it as BoJo promised. Turkey is in the customs union by the way and it doesn't impact their immigration controls.

I think its true to say that most people who voted leave didn't think they were going to have their cake and eat it, I personally see turbulent times ahead but the UK will come through, with or without Scotland.

However a large percentage of them would have voted to remain in the UK.

The problem is that Juncker has ruled out any further expansion of the EU during his presidency and there are already four countries with pending applications. Scotland would be number 5. You're spot on their need to comply with the ERM requirement but I believe the period is longer. In any event Scotland does not meet that requirement and would be less able to upon independence.

Given that the direction of travel of the EU towards totalitarianism, that would certainly be the better option. But very little of Scotland's trade is with the EU now: as I've said before, the vast bulk of its trade is with the rest of the UK and its trade with other non-UK, non-EU countries is greater than with the EU.

Agreed but that's not why we need to leave the Customs Union. We need to leave that in order to be able to strike trade deals with other countries. Our membership of the Customs Union means that if we trade with other countries, we have to do so on WTO rules and tariffs apply (which, incidentally, we do rather successfully and our trade with those countries is growing whereas our trade with the EU is stagnant).

Nicola Sturgeon, whose ego knows no bounds, knows that this is her last chance for any kind of relevance in a fast changing political landscape. She demanded special treatment for Scotland in the Brexit negotiations - more special than that for England, Wales or Northern Ireland - and was rightly ignored. She demanded Scotland remain in the EU's Single Market even if the rest of the UK leaves (which would involve the devolution of nearly every policy area except defence and the macro-economy). No one listened to that, either. She even tried to get an amendment through the House of Commons for the triggering of Article 50 to be delayed for at least a month until the devolved nations agreed a UK-wide approach to Britain's exit. That amendment wasn't just defeated - it was crucified: by 332 votes to 62. A majority of 270 told the SNP exactly how much authority it has over Brexit. And how much power and influence Nicola Sturgeon really has.

The SNP - like Ukip - has but one purpose: to make Scotland independent and like Ukip (and Corbyn's Labour), it is a party of protest, not of government. The Scottish government's job in providing public services should be fairly easy: its population is just over half that of London. But rather than tackle the problems it faces domestically, it prefers to moan and whine and threaten referendums. Given its record, I think it will face a severe drubbing at both sets of Parliamentary elections and be replaced by a resurgent Scottish Labour Party (fortunately a somewhat different animal to that favoured by Corbyn and Momentum); the Tories should claw back some seats too.

As you say, there is no evidence either way, the thing we can say with certainty is that the vote to leave was brought about by the mass EU immigration into the UK, nobody can doubt that, hence May's plan to leave the single market.

Possibly you haven't read this rather damning piece by one of your fellow countrymen. Here's an extract:

You could say yesterday’s demands for a Second Referendum was a brilliant piece of political timing, a finely tipped dagger plunged deep into the heart of already distracted Westminster.

But no..

Yesterday was crass politics. Cynical and insincere.

It lifted the veil on Scottish Nationalism. It exposed Sturgeon as a shifty political opportunist hiding behind the roguery of fake patriotism. She is just another chancer, looking to exploit the political instability left by the abject failure of liberal democracy to solve anything these past 50 years. She is wedded to the political goals of the SNP – break the union at any cost. AT ANY COST – and pay the piper later.

Sturgeon is no different to Trump – shout enough lies loud enough and often enough and some of them will become the truth. She’s lifted the playbook straight from the St Petersburg Soviet about 100 years ago.

I think the market gets it. The lack of panic in Gilts following the announcement suggests either the market doesn’t care, it isn’t worried, and that it considers the likelihood of a successful independence vote to be low. I hope they are right!

The reality that Scotland voted in 2014 to remain in the Union offends Sturgeon – so she simply denies the legitimacy of the last referendum under the veneer everything changed. She refuses to acknowledge the fact Scotland’s GDP is running a massive and unsustainable 11 per cent deficit. She would have us believe the obsolete oil industry will restore the nation’s wealth – blithely pretending the new reality of cheaper US shale will keep prices at a level where the deeper parts of the North Sea remain irrelevant for decades.

She pretends Scotland has some special relationship with Europe. It’s no more part of the EU than Norfolk. She tells the voters Scotland will remain in the EU. Nato was quick to remind her yesterday that Scotland will have to apply for membership – a factor other members will block to avoid similar constitutional breakup.

If you want an example of how poorly Scotland has been performing over these past 20 years, you just have to look at the sharp contrast between Scottish and London house prices…

Perhaps the Scottish people should just 'exit' Scotland. Historically, they seemed to have fared better that way.

I question that and say it was brought about by ALL immigration, not just EU. The only visible immigration that people see is non white. Its not May's plan to leave the single market, she has no choice. She was told by the EU that she cannot have the best of both worlds. So far none of what is happening has been her choice.

You know as well as I do, we are mainly talking about eastern Europeans, they are the ones making the UK look untidy , only last week I saw a family of Romanians traipsing through a industrial estate in Birmingham pushing a supermarket trolley, I thought to myself "what a mess" this is why I voted to leave the EU

Mays plan is my plan, harder the Brexit the better

And how is that going to work economically? accepting for a start that you Romanians are here to stay already. What is the upside?

The upside is that once we have left the EU the Government will be able to decide who comes to this country not the EU with their crazy and obscene open door policy letting any Tom, Dick and Harry into the UK.

I do realise that it will take some time for the numbers to fall, if we do have a hard Brexit then the economy could take a dive and the eastern Europeans will abandon the UK like rats leaving a sinking ship, as they are only economic migrants after all and will go where the work is.

So why is the largest immigrant group in the UK Indian? Its good to know you agree we are on a sinking ship though. At least we agree on something

What ever happens to the UK economy is irrelevant to me but I do not believe for one moment that things will be as bad as the remoaners claim.

As I said, if the UK economy does see a downturn then that will help reduce the numbers.

The eastern Europeans will be able to invade Scotland if the wee one gets her way

Regarding the Indians and Pakistanis, they tend to live together (cities mainly) in places where I would never consider living, eastern Europeans, they're all over the bloody place

Why call her the "wee one"? Its a strange view of the country you claim to want to take control of. Move to Sunderland, there's hardly any EU immigrants there, or jobs.