Scottish Independence referendum part 2

Hi Timmers - I've no problem with robust debate - in fact I relish it. However in debate I always try to play the ball not the man. As the late Tony Benn was oft heard to say "It is all about the isues not the personalities". Therefore I feel that comments such as "poisoned dwarf" and "wee krankie" are not conducive to intelligent debate and detracts from the message the poster wishes to impart.

I despised the policies of Margaret Thatcher - the monetarist policies of Milton Friedman and Keith Joseph et al and the de-industrialisation of our (UK) country. Yet you would never hear me once referring to her sex (e.g. ditch the bitch - The bitch is dead etc). I find such epithets insulting and offensive. I never hated her per se - but rather the policies she espoused and promulgated.

For what its worth I have a number of concerns about the EU as currently structured - including its lack of proper accountability and the fact the EU's budget never gets properly signed-off. As I'm sure you'll know many on the Left in UK politics harbour such misgivings. (And you'll also be aware that common cause over Europe results in strange-bedfellows such as Benn and Enoch Powell!) But on balance I would have preferred the UK to remain in and although I see no practical way how Scotland can be part of the EU without it striking out on its own and seeking admission.

The interesting thing for me about the debate here is that whilst colleagues are very quick to highlight the economic challenges that Independence would bring - and they are real and would have to be addressed - no one seems to disagree about the main thrust of my argument.

No one is telling me here that the current constitutional arrangements - and the policies of the current government - are delivering for the majority of people in the country. This is because you can't - there is simply too much evidence suggesting the contrary. The gig economy, scandalously low levels of social house building, tax breaks for the super-wealthy (and by the way some of my salary is taxed at the higher rate - which I happily pay), the horrendous underfunding of long-term care for the sick and the elderly, Trident renewal, Free schools (a mid-bogglingly & dangerous bad idea - founded on elitism, privilege and ideological prejudice), Tories resiling on employee representation on company Boards (a statutory requirement in Germany.), the less well off paying the cost of austerity to bail out the bankers who wrecked the economy back in 2008 (socialise the debt - privatise the profits) I'm sure you know the script.

There may be some folk on here who are doing very well out of the current way society and the economy is functioning - and good luck to you if you are happy to live in a country where the social fabric is falling apart before our eyes. Depending on the source and methodology employed it's been estimated that around 21% of the UK population live in relative poverty. Poverty kills - literally - and also socially in terms of educational attainment, criminality, health outcomes and many other metrics.

I want to live is a fairer society with less inequality and more socially progressive policies designed to benefit the majority of my fellow citizens - rather than the so-called elite. As mentioned before I would have preferred the unity of the UK to remain but as I'm seeing nothing coming out of Westminster suggesting that the government gives a flying feck about ordinary folk I have, reluctantly, fallen into the Independence camp. I can't see it happening in my lifetime but personally it can't come a day too soon.

I simply want me, my family and my friends to live in a more equal society. Scotland is a beautiful country - with a fantastic environment, natural resources, unlimited energy prospects - and a generally warm, self-deprecating outlook of its people. Some of these qualities apply of course to the other parts of the UK - where I have many dear friends and relatives - but as I said before you do keep voting for a political party I passionately abhor - and which continually and cruelly dumps all over ordinary folk.

I've probably taken this as far as I can go - I didn't join this superb messageboard to argue about politics. But I accept that no one forced me to join this particular debate - and I have a thick skin - so it's been most interesting!

Best.

Gerry

P.S. You may not be aware but in the 1950s the Tories were the establishment party in Scotland - holding a majority of Scottish seats at Westminster but over the years they slowly but surely became an irrelevance - there was a reason for that you know!

P.P.S. You may also not be aware that for decades the SNP were referred to as "Tartan Tories" by their (mainly Labour) opponents - and did indeed contain members of the landed gentry who dressed in tweed and hankered back to the days of the Jacobites. They also had some very unsavoury right-wing characters (some of them borderline fascists) whose anti-English bigotry was disgusting. By my post to date I'm sure you'll have gleaned that I have no truck with such bigotry. There may well be some anti-English sentiment in the minds of some nationalists but I can assure you I have no time for the Braveheart / Tartan Shortbread tin / Claymore wielding types.

Timmers - if you do a little investigation you will find that it's much, much, more than that. It's founded on anti-Catholic bigotry and sectarianism and has it's roots in Anglo-Irish history/politics. Although atheist now I was baptised a Catholic and have had some personal experience of this. Fortunately it's significantly on the wane but still manifests itself in the tribalism of the Old Firm. I can bore for hours on this subject!

Hey @Aromulus - can I just check if you are in support or against free prescriptions? You seem to appear critical here but on another thread (about where someone should live in the UK) you seem to sing the praises of free prescriptions in Wales.

Yes I realise its the old Catholic v Protestant thing going on between the two rivals, unfortunately for some it has been convenient excuse to abuse each other.

As you say, there are improvements nowadays, even my Protestant mother used to tell me that her mother would not let her play with Catholics as a child so we have indeed moved on

Its going to be a very long time if at all that all form of discrimination disappears from our lives, its human nature to discriminate.

Gerry, a most interesting and thought-provoking post, thank you!

I personally hope that Scotland remains in the Union, there is nothing inevitable about the contrary.

You say you want a more equal society along Scandinavian grounds: you have an elected Parliament, elect a government that will deliver that. The Westminster government has devolved most powers to Holyrood, it is up to that government to deliver the kind of society its citizens seek. But you may be in a minority, of course.

Sturgeon appears to have given-up on her insistence that Scotland remains in the Single Market and also appears resigned to the inevitable conclusion that Scotland will not be permitted to join the EU in its own right. She therefore says she is seeking to join EFTA which currently comprises Iceland, Norway, Lichenstein and Switzerland and this will give Scotland access to the Single Market. But today, the Icelandic Foreign Minister, one Gudlaugur Thor Thordarson, has warned her that Scotland can not apply for membership in its own right whilst still part of the United Kingdom and the United Kingdom is still a member of the EU. In other words, it could be several years AFTER an independence referendum before Scotland can join the trade bloc.

This of course begs the question: with whom will Scotland be trading post independence? You will have kissed goodbye to your major trading partner - major by several orders of magnitude - the rest of the UK. And, until you apply to EFTA and its current members grant admission, you won't be trading with the EU either. And if and when you do join EFTA, you will have to erect and police a solid border at your national boundaries (land and sea); that is almost certainly going to be a pre-condition of you joining EFTA and participating in the Single Market. Another pre-condition will almost certainly be the need to adopt the Euro - but you don't/won't meet the strict criteria. Ooops!

It really does seem to me that the Scots Nats are selling you a dream of a Nirvana free and independent of the dastardly English and the Monarchy. But they're being entirely disingenuous - and none more so than Mr Salmond and his glossy prospectus that was about as complete and factually-correct as Blair's Dodgy Dossier. You kicked the Tories out and replaced them with Labour, fair enough. But then you oust Labour and replace them with a gang of protesters ill-equipped for the task of government.

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"Wee Krankie" and "the poisoned dwarf" the terms used to describe the "wee one" as I like to call her are just jovial names for the gorgeous Nichola . Any public figure is always open to scrutiny and a little name play, personally I read nothing into the names, they are for amusement purposes only.

Regarding your dislike of how the EU is structured I think a lot of people would agree with that, for me the EU has an impossible job trying to keep 27 countries happy, that's why it is my belief that leaving the EU will at the very least free the hands of our politicians to concentrate solely on what is in the best interest of the UK. I was absolutely fine when the EU was just a trade block many years back but it has crept into nearly every part of our everyday lives which in my view is wrong.

For me I always sensed when working in the North Sea that there was quite a bit of anti-English coming from the Scottish side, I could feel it around me as you sometimes sense (didn't bother me in the slightest). As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have never seen any anti-Scottish sentiments being expressed on this side of the border but obviously there will be some. I have always heard the usual Scottish skirt wearers, Welsh sheep shaggers and the jokes about the Irish but always just for a joke and nothing more.

You talk about a fairer society, nothing wrong with that as a concept but extremely difficult to put into practice.

The world is not a fair place and it never will be, our trips to the Philippines tell us that.

I watched this interview earlier and I agree with everything the Prime Minister said, she just used the argument of common sense from what I could see.

Well, speaking as someone who saw how the U.K. Government funded projects and how my area was neglected from 1974 to 2008, I'm not sure I share your optimism.

Just take a look at this lovely smiling lady, she looks optimistic

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39282280

Figurehead.

So you're not a fan of the Monarchy, fair enough, not everyone is. However one has to admire the Queen who has played out her life in full public glare whilst members of her own family aren't exactly the most loyal or honourable members of society. Take her husband and his widely-rumoured affairs during the earlier years of their marriage; that behaviour then copied by the eldest son and whose elder son has earned the notoriety of being the laziest of senior Royals and prefers the life of a playboy "dad-dancing" with pretty girls in Verbier with his all-male barkada to undertaking official duties and being at home with his equally work-shy wife. So far this year, Harry has undertaken more royal engagements than his brother or sister-in-law.

The Royal Family is a national treasure and should be preserved - as a tourist draw if for no other reason - but its members should be worthy of that treatment.

I'm rather hoping that Prince Harry takes up the mantle when the Queen decides to take on a lighter schedule, he has grown into a decent young man after a bit of a dodgy start in his adolescent years.

Perhaps we'll get to vote on it

Very droll

Here are the results of four relevant polls conducted in Scotland and released this week:

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The third poll seems to indicate that the electorate doesn't particularly like the EU so possibly wouldn't be fussed by not being able to rejoin. Quadruply bad news for Sturgeon and her SNP colleagues.

Given the overwhelming evidence that the Scottish electorate would reject independence why is she insisting on a referendum when Scotland will be out of the EU regardless of the outcome?

Sturgeon is playing political games, she knows May is somewhat backed in a corner and has her hands full with Brexit. She is obviously trying to turn the Scottish people against Westminster, she knows damn well that May cannot agree to a referendum until after Brexit, I have a gut feeling that it will all come back to bite her on the bum, she is being a little reckless in my opinion.

Many Scots have been against Westminster for the last 311 years since the Acts of Union were passed, so nothing new there! Sturgeon has foolishly over-played her hand and she and her party could be wiped-out at the next set of elections - she has already lost ground in Holyrood where her majority has disappeared and she now leads a minority government.

If I were a Scot (actually, I am) living somewhere in the Highlands, I'd be a tad pissed-off with my government's abject failure to provide decent, efficient and reliable public services whilst blaming Westminster for all of Scotland's problems and continuously threatening yet another referendum on independence. As if that - if we get it - is going to improve public services: it won't, the loss of the Barnet Formula grant will leave a massive black hole in public finances. The very last thing Sturgeon should be campaigning for is independence.

@Scotschap16 I would like to hear your opinion on the following;

Why does Nicola Sturgeon want to leave the UK and then join the EU, surely this would not be an independent Scotland.

I have know idea where you sit on this one but it would be good to hear your view